Simon Bushell, CEO, Sympower
Emeka Chukwureh, Director of International Strategy, Electricity Exchange
Jon Slowe, Director, Delta-EE
[00:00:22.310] - Jon Slowe
Welcome to Talking to Energy, a podcast from Delta-EE, the new energy experts. We will be talking about how the energy transition is developing across Europe, with guests who are working at the leading edge of this transition. Hello and welcome to the podcast. In the current coronavirus crisis, balancing the electricity system has become more challenging in some countries. The challenges have been different from the balancing challenges before the crisis. In some cases, we've seen really high levels of renewable generation together with periods of very low demand on a local and national basis.
[00:00:46.880] - Jon Slowe
Prices have turned negative in some markets. Other markets with less variable generation have seen different challenges and maybe less extreme challenges. But to explore how these challenges have changed and how the markets have responded to them. I'm joined today by two aggregators whose day job is using demand-side flexibility to help balance the electricity system.
[00:01:10.970] - Jon Slowe
And we'll explore what life has been like for them in the crisis. So, let me introduce my two guests. First up is Emeka Chukwureh from Electricity Exchange in Ireland. Hello Emeka,
[00:01:23.750] - Emeka Chukwureh
Hello,
[00:01:23.750] - Jon Slowe
Emeka, thanks for joining the podcast. Can you give us a quick introduction to electricity exchange as a company? Who you are and what you do?
[00:01:36.940] - Emeka Chukwureh
Absolutely, Jon. Thanks for that, a pleasure to be here. So, Electricity Exchange is a smart grid technology and services company. We are focused pretty much on researching, developing and deploying demand-side flexibility solutions, as you alluded to. And the aim of that is to unlock ever greater system flexibilities that are required as we move to more variables, not Synchronoss, renewable energy on the system that is
[00:02:04.820] - Jon Slowe
And in Ireland
[00:02:05.420] - Jon Slowe
You've got plenty of that, haven't you? It's as a market where there's very high levels, of wind generation.
[00:02:13.630] - Emeka Chukwureh
Absolutely it is a big fact of managing our system from the system operator’s perspective.
[00:02:21.160] - Jon Slowe
Yes. And to give an idea of scale, history, how long have you been around as a company? How many customers do you work with or how many megawatts do you manage?
[00:02:32.420] - Emeka Chukwureh
So, I say business. We've been around since 2013 and we've seen the cycle from the previous market that was in Ireland into the new market arrangements that went live in late 2018 in terms of size.
[00:02:48.540] - Emeka Chukwureh
We are in the mid-hundreds of megawatts, which makes us about 30-35 percent of the demand-side share in Ireland at number two.
[00:03:02.040] - Emeka Chukwureh
And that'll be made up of lots of customers nudging hundreds at this stage.
[00:03:08.830] - Jon Slowe
OK, thanks very much Emeka, we'll come back to you shortly. My second guest is Simon Bushell, from Sympower in the Netherlands. Hello Simon.
[00:03:17.820] - Simon Bushell
Hello, Jon.
[00:03:20.170] - Jon Slowe
Simon, likewise, can you give us an elevator pitch for Sympower, please?
[00:03:25.220] - Simon Bushell
Sure, yeah.
[00:03:25.650] - Simon Bushell
Great to be here. Sympower is an independent international demand responce aggregator. We're very mission-driven company. We believe that flexibility is vital for a successful energy transition. We currently work in the Netherlands where I'm based, as well as Finland, Sweden, Switzerland and Israel. And yes, we are a software company. We connect our customers to our software platform and that platform provides end to end solution that stabilizes the energy grids and offers real-time monitoring in order to keep the supply and demand of electricity in balance.
[00:04:00.020] - Jon Slowe
Great. And again, an idea of scale you've given us, the countries that you're you're active in, customers, employees, megawatts, years in the market. Can you give us a feel for that?
[00:04:12.350] - Simon Bushell
So, we founded the company back in 2015 in Estonia, actually. And yeah, right now we've got a few hundred megawatts of controllable capacity across the different geographies I mentioned earlier and mostly commercial-industrial customers.
[00:04:29.500] - Jon Slowe
Right. OK, thanks Emeka, thanks, Simon. So, I'd like to ask each of you now for the changes that you've seen in your business since the corona crisis back, I guess, in February, March. So, what's been in the business of being an aggregator?
[00:04:48.250] - Jon Slowe
What's been different? What's changed? Emeka do you want to start with one or two points and then we can go Simon to you.
[00:04:55.960] - Emeka Chukwureh
Yeah, sure. So, the biggest change really has, I mean this has been this has been a shock to the system, to everybody. And as you probably would imagine, particularly so for commercial and industrial customers who a lot of them have had to pretty much lock down their operations. So that has a huge impact on availability, on flex availability from demand that is there for the system. Conversely, there's some parts of the system that actually the demand has gone up because of this crisis, for argument's sake, any company that produces oxygen for hospitals, has been running pretty much on full load.
[00:05:38.860] - Emeka Chukwureh
So, their availability sorry, their demand is high but the availability to flex is low because, you know, we have to produce oxygen for the health conditions in hospitals. So that's been the biggest change. It's been the. So, there's there is demand destruction in some cases, there's actual increase in demand in other cases. But in general, it has impacted the ability of demand to flex.
[00:06:04.990] - Jon Slowe
Yeah, and I bet you never. Well, maybe you did have the foresight to see this possibility.
[00:06:10.100] - Jon Slowe
It's very difficult to see this coming. Simon how about you.
[00:06:16.600] - Jon Slowe
What would you what would you highlight?
[00:06:19.660] - Simon Bushell
Well, I think we've been very lucky from an internal perspective because yeah like I said, we're based in quite a few different countries to start off with. So, we're very used to remote working. So, for us, we didn't have that kind of tricky phase of a few weeks that I know. Yeah. Other people had where, you know, you're trying to use the zoom calls and all that sort of sort of thing. So that's been yeah.
[00:06:40.750] - Simon Bushell
That's been quite lucky for us. And I think I completely agree with what Emeka said. I think there's, what's been interesting is kind of to see both sides of the coin. So, there's been some companies that have been affected by the pandemic and have therefore had less flexibility to offer. But actually, flexibility can offer a new revenue stream. So actually, some companies that have been maybe affected by the pandemic but have got some, sort of some bandwidth to look at other projects have actually been even more interested in, you know, what flexibility has to offer to them, because, yeah, it can add that extra revenue stream in a time when they when they really need it.
[00:07:19.710] - Simon Bushell
So that's been kind of. Yeah. Good and bad let's say.
[00:07:26.320] - Jon Slowe
So, I can see the challenges with your, your both focused on commercial and industrial customers. So, I can really imagine how that's affected you.
[00:07:35.500] - Jon Slowe
What about the demand for flexibility?
[00:07:37.480] - Jon Slowe
So, I think both of your businesses are focused on, helping or working with the system operator the TSO has the need for flexibility changed significantly. Emeka do you want to go first?
[00:07:52.600] - Emeka Chukwureh
Absolutely. And I'm going to use the example of this past weekend. It was a bank holiday in Ireland. And I do actually keep an eye on GB as well. And incidentally, the flexibility that this system needs is more like a it's a downward flexibility if you like. And that's National Grid in GB pre-empted that with their new program. So, if you like, we always think of flex in one direction. But what has happened particularly over this weekend is that they actually need flex in the other direction.
[00:08:26.570] - Emeka Chukwureh
So, it's stopped by direction elements, which I think has come out, you know, to the fore. And Simon alluded to that. So, if you look at the demand turn up, it actually is a service that's as you have demand destruction. But you still have say in Ireland with wind farms going gangbusters as it did.
[00:08:48.050] - Emeka Chukwureh
Over the weekend. If you have the ability to turn up demand again, if for argument's sake, in this case, does end up producing oxygen, which is really required, if they can ramp up production, even more, that is that's the flip side of flexibility.
[00:09:04.540] - Emeka Chukwureh
So, it's not just in one direction, but the flex on the other direction as well.
[00:09:12.320] - Jon Slowe
And has that been the same in the markets, Simon, you operate in?
[00:09:14.130] - Simon Bushell
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you look at the Netherlands, energy consumption has been down, I think about 10 percent lower than normal. And what's also been interesting is that in the Netherlands, we've had an unusually sunny but also windy spring, which means that for the first time we're seeing a lot of significantly negative energy prices.
[00:09:35.390] - Simon Bushell
{Illegible} markets, which is definitely at the very least, it's sparking interest. And, you know, you if you can consume flexibly, then, you know, we should do something about it.
[00:09:47.270] - Simon Bushell
I think what's been very impressive is that you know, a crisis always puts stress on a system and especially a system that needs to be balanced. So precisely. And I think, you know, I think that at least, in markets, we've worked the system has there been any really significant problems. So, you know, clearly, the processes and markets that we have in place that the grid operators have in place now are working even in a really, you know, extreme situation.
[00:10:16.040] - Simon Bushell
So that's been that's what's been sort of good and interesting to observe.
[00:10:22.590] - Jon Slowe
Let's pick out these two points out of your commercial and industrial customers. Maybe not being able to provide the same flexibility they did either because they've shut down or Emeka as you said they're working flat out producing oxygen for a hospital.
[00:10:37.600] - Jon Slowe
So you've had changes to the availability of flexibility. And then on the other side, you have had much more requirement for demand turn up. So, the need for flexibility has changed. So, I'm really interested to hear from each of you how you've coped with that or how you've navigated those. You know, I guess one challenge and one opportunity. Who would like to start on that?
[00:11:07.100] - Simon Bushell
Well for us.
[00:11:07.480] - Simon Bushell
What's been interesting is seeing the difference across the different geographies. So, in the Nordics, for example, I think it's been relatively business as usual with insulation's ongoing, you know, customers in general not really changing their patterns that much.
[00:11:27.220] - Simon Bushell
But then in Israel, for example, they had a very strictly enforced lockdown. And that's made things quite difficult. And they've had some really extreme sort of imbalances in the last weeks, especially last weekend, for example. So, yeah, it's been very, very different in different countries. And as you said, the energy mix also has a big impact. Yeah.
[00:11:51.450] - Jon Slowe
So, in Israel, for example, Simon, what have you been able to do? Because has it been very frustrating because there's been a real opportunity to provide flexibility. But you've not been able to because your normal customers just aren't able to provide that.
[00:12:07.210] - Simon Bushell
Yeah. And I think Israel's a very nascent market. We're working with the grid operator and the Ministry of Energy to actually start, kind of kick start demand response markets there. And I think that this hopefully has really provided an example of why this is really needed. And yeah. And what you what the potential of demand response could be.
[00:12:36.700] - Emeka Chukwureh
I'm going to {illegible} what Simon is saying there. So, I remember the days when I moved to Ireland fifteen years ago and Ryanair would advertise fares at one euro. And I was doing my MBA then my classmates would all jump on booked flights to all over Europe. Now, I couldn't book those flights because I didn't have an EU passport so I could not respond to the prices even though I could see them. So, like Simon said over the past weekend, we've had negative prices.
[00:13:07.190] - Emeka Chukwureh
I mean, for the first time in GB, we've had an average daily negative price. But you can respond to that. I mean, some of the retailers have products that you can respond to. But generally, it's not something we can respond to because to enrol assets into that, I mean, we have to queue to get into a program that maybe six months away or a year where then we have to install equipment and all that.
[00:13:31.810] - Emeka Chukwureh
So, I think what will happen with this is the notion that when you're designing flexibility into the system, I think this situation will give everyone a point to reference and say if this ever happens again, touch wood it doesn't, but if it does happen again, we need to have a system that can, you know, allow a bi-directional flex and all that kind of stuff.
[00:13:58.240] - Simon Bushell
Absolutely and we're also kind of getting a kind of insight into what the future of the you know what, if you fast forward, say, five years into the future, what the energy system then is going to look like, because, you know, the conventional generators have been the ones that have been producing less in general, which means that we've suddenly seen renewables all of sudden dominating the markets. And that is, you know, that's the trend that's going to continue in the years to come.
[00:14:24.610] - Simon Bushell
So, yeah, exactly. So hopefully it's given an insight into how we need to design markets, the cope of this.
[00:14:33.180] - Jon Slowe
How much variation have you seen in your customers? Emeka you gave this really nice example of a company producing oxygen, they've not shut down, in fact, they're working absolutely flat out.
[00:14:45.080] - Jon Slowe
Are there any other examples, Emeka, or Simon of customers that you've been surprised by or where you've learned more about the flexibility that your customers do have?
[00:14:59.290] - Emeka Chukwureh
I think the oxygen one is one that stands out to me. I mean, data centres, as a class.
[00:15:08.690] - Emeka Chukwureh
I mean, everyone is, I mean, in contrast to CNI demand everyone is at home watching Netflix.
[00:15:17.900] - Emeka Chukwureh
Not that it's been surprising, but if you like, that's another demand class that is just going at it. I mean we are in a virtual chatroom; people are on Zoom the whole time. So, it's not a surprise, but it's just another class where demand has held up and actually probably increased.
[00:15:41.100] - Simon Bushell
Yeah, and I think two examples I can give.
[00:15:43.630] - Simon Bushell
Firstly, the greenhouse and in general the agricultural sector, which hasn't really taken a hit, at least not amongst our customers and also the paper industry. And I thought was quite funny, too, when there was some talk about toilet paper shortages. I was quite, quite glad to know that our customers, in the paper industry would, for the time being, have plenty of work to do.
[00:16:17.360] - Jon Slowe
Maybe one of the busiest set of businesses about, I imagine.
[00:16:21.720] - Simon Bushell
Exactly.
[00:16:23.250] - Jon Slowe
So, and in terms of the automation of your platform and your optimisation activities, you know, I think back to that when demand response first started or was gaining ground in the US. I don't know the stories of an aggregator phoning up a hotel to say, can you reduce your demand? And then some poor person in the hotel having to run up to each floor and switch off the ice machines and then write down and say, yes, we've reduced our demand.
[00:16:53.710] - Jon Slowe
Now we're in an automated world here. But how automated have you been able to be? I think it will be really interesting to hear about whether the degree of automation and the degree of where you're able to just where you have to pick up the phone your customers and speak with your customers. What's that balance been like for you?
[00:17:17.060] - Simon Bushell
Well, I think from our side, we are, yeah, our platforms sort of fully automated. So that hasn't really posed a problem. I think that, yeah, what we have done more recently is to have more conversations with our customers to understand what their challenges are and where maybe flex, where we may be as we talked about earlier, you know, there is more flexibility or less flexibility. But yeah, in general, we have a fully automated platform, so which we're continuously improving.
[00:17:47.570] - Simon Bushell
So, you know, we've hopefully taken some of the sort of results of the stress test that happened in the last months into account in future. But in general, things have been holding up well, let's say.
[00:18:01.100] - Jon Slowe
Yeah.
[00:18:02.160] - Emeka Chukwureh
Yeah and same as ourselves. Our platforms are fully automated, and our preference is always to offer automated response and then notify the customers subsequently if an event has taken place, we do offer manual dispatch. But generally, that's, you know, in a few cases and usually very large customers who would have a dedicated resource on-site to respond accordingly. So, if we call them up, they know what we're talking about and they you know, they probably have a button at their desk that they push and it activates stuff at their site.
[00:18:38.700] - Emeka Chukwureh
So, we offer both, but our preference is always an automated response, and {illegible} afterwards.
[00:18:47.260] - Jon Slowe
Okay.
[00:18:48.890] - Jon Slowe
Let's move on to the second point that you both talked about at the beginning, which is the need for more turn up rather than turn down or the different flexibility requirements from the system operator.
[00:19:03.080] - Jon Slowe
Can you, could you both say a bit more about those and give our listeners an idea of how the patterns or the demand for flexibility has changed maybe, what it was like and what it is like now?
[00:19:15.380] - Simon Bushell
Yeah, so I think the. Yeah.
[00:19:18.610] - Simon Bushell
Traditionally, yeah, we have most been looking at demand turn down services and I think that TSOs have in general already sort of foreseen that there's going to be more and more, need for the turn-up services. So, for example, in the Nordics, they're planning next year to go live with a sort of fast, fast-acting turn-up service for when the system is very out of balance, in that direction. Yeah. They'll continue with plans to make that happen.
[00:19:54.260] - Simon Bushell
And I think that you know, like we said earlier, the current situation has really emphasised the need for that and the opportunity as well.
[00:20:04.460] - Jon Slowe
And has that been, what's it been like in terms of your customers, the industrial and commercial customers.
[00:20:09.290] - Jon Slowe
So, have you found that you've spent most of your time with them talking about turn down, but now you're suddenly talking with them about, hey, what can you turn up or have you been doing sufficient turn up already that actually that was relatively smooth to provide that turn up to the system operator.
[00:20:30.350] - Simon Bushell
I guess a bit of both. I think that, yeah, we've been where we have been able to provide turn up in the past. We yeah, we have made sure that we've had the ability to start off with. I think that, you know, if you look at the new market, I talking about in Finland, I think like I said earlier the TSO's are doing a great job to keep things going in the current situation, but.
[00:20:56.690] - Simon Bushell
By their nature, they can't be that fast-moving. So, it's not like there's all of a sudden new products available or a new market available for turn up. So, yeah we've definitely been having the conversations and trying to find a way where we can. But I guess it's a slightly more slow-moving process, at least in the geographies we're in.
[00:21:17.050] - Jon Slowe
Sure
[00:21:19.430]
{Cross talk}
[00:21:19.860] - Jon Slowe
Sorry, carry on.
[00:21:21.550] - Emeka Chukwureh
In our case, it's similar. We've led with both offerings. I mean turn down is what is more available because it's, I mean you have more demand on the system than we have surplus. So that's, what is there. But going forward it would always be a balancing act and an alignment issue. So, we are in an unusual situation where demand has been destroyed in such an incredible, literally a cliff face.
[00:21:53.330] - Emeka Chukwureh
However, if you roll forward, we are supposedly having a sector coupling with transportation. So we should start seeing EV's coming in and becoming electricity consumers. We are seeing a sector coupling with heat. And again, you know, heat is taking up a lot of about demand. So depending on the alignment of those changes, we may not run into where turn up is would ever be any significant case. However, again, if we ever have a situation like this, you know, stress, hope we don't, but you know as they tell us.
[00:22:35.630] - Emeka Chukwureh
You know, we're probably going into a zone of pandemics. So, who knows? But it's about designing the system to be able to deliver this if necessary, so that, you know, as proper economics dictates. If you see negative prices, it's one thing just admiring the prices. It's another thing being able to react to prices.
[00:23:01.160] - Emeka Chukwureh
We have to have the ability to react accordingly.
[00:23:06.350] - Jon Slowe
Sure, sure and I guess looking forward. And we'll come onto this at the end as residential demand response through, as you said, Emeka, electric vehicles, electrification of heat.
[00:23:19.220] - Jon Slowe
As those volumes grow, then that will be another source of flexibility that will give you more diversity in your, across your customer base.
[00:23:29.010] - Emeka Chukwureh
Yeah, I'm sorry.
[00:23:32.940] - Jon Slowe
So, one other thing that I've seen in the market is challenges, more challenges that the distribution network level your businesses have focused on, mainly on the TSO at the national level, because that's where the markets are but talking with a number of DSO's I know they've had challenges with low demand and high levels of distribution, connected renewables, small winds, rooftop solar, solar farms connected to the distribution network.
[00:24:05.700] - Jon Slowe
Now, these markets aren't quite there for flexibility well they're emerging.
[00:24:09.870] - Jon Slowe
They're just starting that coming. I'm interested from both of your perspectives. Have you seen much interest at the distribution level or does this make you think those markets will open up more quickly in the next years?
[00:24:24.280] - Simon Bushell
Yeah, I think that these are slow-moving processes. That have, there's been a lot more interested in, a lot more interest sorry, in the, in these markets in the last years, you know, across all the countries we work in, we're involved with different projects about local distribution.
[00:24:43.760] - Simon Bushell
But I and I again, think that this is, that this sort of stress test on the system is again going to is hopefully going to be at least a sort of a catalyst to encourage distribution system operators to make that next step. Maybe a little bit quicker or maybe a little bit more ambitiously than they were hoping to before. Haven't seen it yet. But at least all the projects that are currently going have at least been, you know, the market openings that we are looking at have continued.
[00:25:12.460] - Simon Bushell
So at least there's not really that many delays or hold-ups. And, yeah, hopefully in the future, this will give me a good boost to get those markets open.
[00:25:22.760] - Jon Slowe
Yeah. And I know. One of the people I've spoken with his head of head of DSO at one of the distribution companies and trying to drive their transition from network operator to system operator. His view is this really accelerates that transition from a network operator to a system operator.
[00:25:42.690] - Simon Bushell
Well, that's great to hear.
[00:25:44.790] - Jon Slowe
Yeah. Yeah. Emeka, how about in Ireland, you don't have so many distribution DSO's over there, one main distribution operator.
[00:25:57.070] - Emeka Chukwureh
We have one in Ireland and one in Northern Ireland and that's about it.
[00:26:01.840] - Jon Slowe
Yeah.
[00:26:02.110] - Jon Slowe
So, do you see they've had challenges or in Ireland, is it mainly transmission connected renewables that have, of course, the stresses in the last week's?
[00:26:14.480] - Emeka Chukwureh
So, yes, in Ireland, we don't have a significant deployment of EV's, we don't have rooftop solar. We have a wind at the distribution level. But again, they are larger than you would have at the domestic levels. So, there are some challenges around that. But that's relatively manageable.
[00:26:35.420] - Emeka Chukwureh
So, from really small scale embedded stuff, it's not a huge challenge in Ireland. But looking across the market, you know, so pick South Australia, for argument's sake, last year, in South Australia 65 percent was from rooftop solar.
[00:26:53.950] - Jon Slowe
Yeah,
[00:26:54.710] - Emeka Chukwureh
That is just you know, it's just way out there. And the estimates are they're probably going to be going to 85 percent by 2025. So, when you look at, and that has led the market or data there to suggest mechanisms to sort of slow that process down.
[00:27:14.890] - Emeka Chukwureh
So when you look at that, when we don't design the systems then you get blunt instruments of, let's slow this process down rather than a market incentive or let's provide solutions to address this so we can harness this resource.
[00:27:28.670] - Jon Slowe
Yeah, either slow down or I've seen moves to try and switch off solar farms at certain times, where they're causing real problems for their distribution network.
[00:27:39.140] - Emeka Chukwureh
Yeah,
[00:27:39.340] - Jon Slowe
But of course, far better to use flexibility to maximise the output from their farms.
[00:27:44.630] - Emeka Chukwureh
Exactly. You know, so from the perspective of, you know, for the likes of us, I've been banging on about flexibility forever. And we're now hit with it in the face. We have to do stuff. Indeed, we did. You know, the emphasis, like I said, is we're not going to be able to do a huge lot while we're in this crisis.
[00:28:09.750] - Emeka Chukwureh
But, you know, the hope is that as we come out of this crisis and we plan future market arrangements, designs, and all that this crisis will be with large in the back of everyone's mind as we plan for it.
[00:28:26.150] - Jon Slowe
Yeah, and I hope it gives an additional boost to that momentum that's building around using flexibility to help manage distribution networks, it won't always be the right solution for that.
[00:28:36.620] - Jon Slowe
But I'm sure it'll be an important solution for them in the next year.
[00:28:42.250] - Jon Slowe
Okay. It's that time of the podcast now where we bring out the Talking New Energy crystal ball. So, here it is on the desk in front of me and I'm going to set the dial to 2025 and my question to both of you is.
[00:28:59.660] - Jon Slowe
How do you think the aggregator business will change in the next five years? So, if we fast forward to 2025, what differences do you think you'll be seeing in your businesses or how will your business be different in five years’ time than it is today? Apart from, of course, being a lot bigger and even more successful than it has been so far.
[00:29:26.760] - Jon Slowe
Simon, would you like to start with that?
[00:29:30.240] - Simon Bushell
Sure.
[00:29:30.470] - Simon Bushell
So, I think a couple of things we've touched on already. So firstly, I think there's going to be yeah, we're going to see a continuing increase in the share of renewable energy, you know, which has happened very quickly in last few months. But that trend will continue, which is going to mean there's more need flexibility on both a local level and a national level. And like we talked about earlier, more need for turn up flexibility. I think the sector coupling that Emeka talked about earlier is going to really start to have an impact in the next five years with both EV's transport and heat providing new challenges, but also new opportunities in terms of flexibility.
[00:30:08.780] - Simon Bushell
I think a final point, which I'm interested in, is that in the last few years we've seen quite a lot of consolidation in the aggregator business let's say with Centrica buying REstore and now buying Adnoc {illegible} etc.
[00:30:23.120] - Simon Bushell
And I'm, but on the other hand, you're seeing the European Commission, with the clean energy package, actually really pushing for there to be more independent aggregators and keeping that choice for customers. So, I'm interested to see what that's going to look like in five years’ time as an independent aggregator ourselves. Of course. Interested in that. Yeah. And hopefully, there'll be plenty of independent aggregators, meaning that people do have the choice when possible.
[00:30:53.190] - Jon Slowe
OK. So new challenges, bigger challenges for balancing the system, new sources of flexibility from sector coupling from electric heating, electric vehicles.
[00:31:04.410] - Jon Slowe
And this sort of question about whether aggregators are to become part of broader, bigger energy companies or stay independent.
[00:31:11.410] - Simon Bushell
Great summary.
[00:31:13.270] - Jon Slowe
Thank you. Emeka, how about you? If we looked at your business in five years’ time, what would we see different?
[00:31:22.920] - Emeka Chukwureh
So, Simon has stolen a lot of my notes.
[00:31:25.330]
{Cross talk} {Laughing}
[00:31:25.500] - Emeka Chukwureh
So'll try and come at this from another angle, but I'll leap off on the acquisition by aggregators, by utilities, because I was sort of part of one and that was acquired by Enel X that wave of acquisition was done by utilities who essentially have seen the challenges utilities and they're trying to transform and that's happened to them. But then straight on the back of that, you've seen the likes of the oil companies like Shell and BP become active and doing the same because, you know, again, they're seeing the challenges to their business, which over this virus, I mean, we're seeing oil prices that we haven't seen for 15-20 years.
[00:32:10.000] - Emeka Chukwureh
So.
[00:32:10.620] - Jon Slowe
Yeah.
[00:32:11.430] - Emeka Chukwureh
So they are becoming active, but then when you move for the you know, beyond those guys, you're seeing the likes of the Googles and the Amazons and the Tesla's becoming active in this space as well. So, this is not going to be by all means just utility exclusively you're going to see people, if you like, platform companies if I can class them as that. All pushing it into this space because, you know, like we talked earlier, our platforms automated to a large extent, what these guys do is platforms and skill.
[00:32:47.000] - Emeka Chukwureh
So, to the extent that you can turn this into a scale able business and be able to respond to those prices, you're going to see this not being a utility play or even a broader energy play. I know and maybe Simon wants to stay independent, you know, I won't comment on that, but the trends are that you're going to see, in my view, a lot more activity from non-energy players in this space, but from our business perspective.
[00:33:13.650] - Emeka Chukwureh
In five years’, time, we aim to be an international business-like Simon's is. I mean, that's what my title is that's what my role is, that's what my {illegible} to spread our wings into international markets and cover as many countries across the globe. So, that's on the cards for us as a business. But on other thing Simon mentioned is, I suppose, they by nature built-up.
[00:33:41.820] - Emeka Chukwureh
As a remote operations business, we've built up as a single location. Everybody's in there, you know we have had to learn now how to operate with distributed teams.
[00:33:56.790] - Emeka Chukwureh
It was something that I was going to implement as we go outside Ireland into international markets that we have to learn how to operate a remote business. I don't need to plan for that anymore. We are actually.
[00:34:10.740] - Jon Slowe
No, it's happened.
[00:34:13.590] - Emeka Chukwureh
So, part of my job has been done for me.
[00:34:17.690] - Jon Slowe
Well, that's always nice when that happens Emeka, but it doesn't sound like your short of other things to do as well.
[00:34:25.110] - Emeka Chukwureh
Absolutely not.
[00:34:28.860] - Jon Slowe
So yeah.
[00:34:29.420] - Jon Slowe
Remote coping with remote working and then. Yeah.
[00:34:33.360] - Jon Slowe
Really interesting point, I think about the number of companies that will see opportunities to in the sector. So yeah. Difficult to know exactly what the landscape of companies active in flexibility would look like in five years’ time. So Emeka, Simon, thanks very much for your time and sharing your views. And I admire everyone that's sort of had to pivot and manage challenges in their businesses over the last months. And as you say, the systems have stayed operating.
[00:35:12.390] - Jon Slowe
The lights have stayed on.
[00:35:13.860] - Jon Slowe
So, everyone's doing their jobs really well and good luck in the next years.
[00:35:21.180] - Emeka Chukwureh
Thank you, Jon. It's been a pleasure to be on here today.
[00:35:24.820] - Simon Bushell
Thank you. Thank you, Jon.
[00:35:26.640] - Jon Slowe
To our listeners, thanks for joining. We hope you found that interesting. And we look forward to welcoming you back next week. Thanks very much and goodbye.
[00:35:51.720] - Jon Slowe
If you're as passionate about the energy transition as we are, then please keep in touch. You can follow us and me on Twitter, LinkedIn or subscribe to the podcasts on your chosen podcast platform.
[00:36:05.300] - Jon Slowe
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