[00:00:24.190] - Jon Slowe
Welcome to Talking to Energy, a podcast from Delta-EE, the new energy experts. We will be talking about how the energy transition is developing across Europe, with guests who are working at the leading edge of this transition. Hello and welcome to the episode. Europe has built up one of the best gas distribution infrastructures in the world. There's one problem, though. Today it distributes natural gas, a fuel that will hardly be able to use if we're to reach zero targets in the future.
[00:00:37.180] - Jon Slowe
So, can we use this infrastructure instead for clean hydrogen, either blended with natural gas as a steppingstone to net zero or with pure hydrogen in the future? Today, we'll be putting aside the discussion on the extent to which we should do this and focus on whether we can do this and what's involved in doing so. To explore the topic, I'm joined by two guests from gas distribution companies in Germany and the UK, together with my colleague and Delta-EE expert Rob Castek.
[00:01:07.390] - Jon Slowe
So, without further ado, let's say hello to them. First Eva Hennin, who works for Thüga, an alliance of German municipal energy companies, as well as being chair of Eurogas’s Distribution Committee.
[00:01:19.360] - Jon Slowe
Hello, Eva.
[00:01:20.960] - Eva Hennig
Hello. Thank you very much for the invitation
[00:01:23.740] - Jon Slowe
And thanks for joining us.
[00:01:26.230] - Jon Slowe
Eva, Thüga is a bit of a unique organization when it comes to gas distribution and energy distribution. Can you in a nutshell just describe what Thüga is?
[00:01:36.490] - Eva Hennig
Yes.
[00:01:37.180] - Eva Hennig
Thank you very much. Thüga is quite old. We were founded in 1867 and we are a group of 100 utility companies all around Germany. We only operate in Germany and those companies are doing gas, electricity, water and wastewater.
[00:01:51.940] - Eva Hennig
The whole group together has four million electricity customers and about two million gas customers. And they have also a lot of district heating. And the specialty is that the Thüga only has a minority share and the majority share of those utility companies is held by the cities and the regions.
[00:02:09.190] - Jon Slowe
OK, that's an impressive history and an impressive number of companies under one umbrella as part of one umbrella organization.
[00:02:17.800] - Jon Slowe
When it comes to hydrogen, how long has hydrogen been on Thüga's agenda and how quickly has it sped up the agenda in the last few years?
[00:02:28.270] - Eva Hennig
So how long is exactly thirty-one years when I was employed because I already did my thesis on power to gas in 1989
[00:02:35.380] - Jon Slowe
So, you’re the beginning?
[00:02:39.280] - Eva Hennig
I wouldn't say they employed me because I know something about hydrogen. They employed me and my husband together now, but really more in-depth. It started at the end of 2009-2010, when also the regulation was turning towards hydrogen in Germany. We already have hydrogen as part of our energy law. And then we really started thinking more and more intensively how to decarbonise the grids because we already had biomethane in our grids and 2014 we built our first {illegible} electrolyser.
[00:03:08.110] - Eva Hennig
It's coming from the UK. It was built by ITM. So, it was quite a small one.
[00:03:12.910] - Eva Hennig
We only produced sixty-five cubic metres of hydrogen, but still it was the first pilot plan was installed in Frankfurt and injected hydrogen into the grid was of Frankfurt it was a joint venture with 13 companies. And we did everything to that electrolyser you could do.
[00:03:27.730] - Eva Hennig
We ramped it up and down and we put it in the balancing market. So, it was really for us to learn and we operated it for three years. And then we said, well, now legislation and technical rules have to change. And since then, we have been very active. We have pilot projects; we are part of the big pilot project in northern Germany. It's called in Heide. It's west coast of one hundred where we will inject in the future twenty percent of hydrogen into the distribution grid.
[00:03:52.270] - Eva Hennig
But we also look into two pyrolysis projects to produce hydrogen for the pyrolysis. We've employed eight people. So, we have a big group here within Thüga, which is looking for hydrogen projects. And of course, my main job is to look at regulation and everything and being a company with a lot of gas interest. We have a lot of technical expertise, which is exactly working on the topic of hydrogen blends and pure hydrogen grids at the moment.
[00:04:21.520] - Eva Hennig
So, it's very intense in Thüga. And hydrogen is on many, many people's minds at the moment.
[00:04:27.430] - Jon Slowe
Yeah, it sounds like you've got some really interesting experience you've built up learning by doing and I'll come back to you shortly and we'll get stuck into some of what you've learnt and what the challenges are ahead. My second guest is Keith Owen from Northern Gas Networks in the UK, Keith leads Energy Strategy and Systems Development.
[00:04:46.450] - Jon Slowe
Hello, Keith.
[00:04:48.050] - Keith Owen
Yeah, good morning and thank you for inviting me to this session.
[00:04:52.700] - Jon Slowe
And thanks for coming along, Keith. Likewise. Can you give us an elevator pitch for Northern Gas Networks for those of our listeners that don't know it?
[00:05:02.180] - Keith Owen
Of course, yes. So Northern Gas Network is a gas distribution business in the north of England. So, we're stretching from Scottish borders down to just south of Leeds to give you the geographic size, two point seven million consumers connected to our grid providing heat service 24/7. So, a very typical sort of gas distribution business across the north, across the UK, rather, and obviously working really closely with partners in the other gas distribution businesses in the UK.
[00:05:37.190] - Jon Slowe
Yeah, OK, thanks.
[00:05:39.240] - Jon Slowe
And your company sparked a lot of interest in the UK, I think, back in 2016 with your H21 study around the city of Leeds. Can you tell us a bit about that H21 project?
[00:05:54.170] - Keith Owen
Yeah, of course. And as you might expect, things have moved on significantly since that initial paper.
[00:06:02.030] - Keith Owen
And back then, the H21 Leeds City Gate report as it was released at the time, was just looking at a concept. Is it possible to convert a gas network from natural gas as we know it today and run it with 100 percent hydrogen and then in doing so, decarbonise the heat story of what we have in the UK. So that was where we started with H21 that that has just grown arms and legs since that time to really explore the technical complexities of that.
[00:06:42.230] - Keith Owen
What is a fairly simple question?
[00:06:44.480] - Jon Slowe
And is there is there a fairly simple answer?
[00:06:46.520] - Jon Slowe
We’ll unpack it in a bit, but what did that initial study, how much of a simple yes no maybe was the answer.
[00:06:56.540] - Keith Owen
So, the original report concluded that it was technically feasible to do this. Since that time, we've had a number of different projects within the H21 each 21 programme. Which is really exploring those challenges and a lot more detail to establish the long-term safety case to allow us to transition across.
[00:07:19.630] - Jon Slowe
Great. OK, likewise.
[00:07:21.170] - Jon Slowe
We'll come back shortly and dig into some of those findings and follow up projects now to help us set the scene. My third guest is my colleague Delta-EE colleague Rob Castek, Rob, there's a lot of excitement and I should probably say a bit of hype around hydrogen at the moment.
[00:07:40.090] - Jon Slowe
How? If we look at the whole hydrogen space, we're focusing here on gas networks, but how would you break down the whole hydrogen space and help our listeners understand where their gas networks fit into that hydrogen value chain?
[00:07:54.730] - Rob Castek
Yes, certainly, Jon.
[00:07:55.600] - Rob Castek
So, at Delta-EE we like to think of it as a three-legged stool. So, the first leg of the stool being the sort of the production of hydrogen, the second leg being sort of the distribution and the storage of hydrogen and the third leg then being the utilization so the actual use of the hydrogen. And when it comes to the use, we typically break that down into the transport industry, heat and power segments.
[00:08:25.270] - Jon Slowe
And if we're going to distribute it widely to buildings, to homes in the future, we're going to need pipes and they're can we use existing pipes? I guess that's where blending and using existing pipes and new networks comes in for the blending.
[00:08:44.020] - Jon Slowe
What are we talking about typically that you're seeing at the moment, one percent, 10 percent, 20 percent, 50 percent?
[00:08:52.040] - Rob Castek
So, for blending the typical sort of project and trials that are being looked at today are sort of typically around 20 percent. But there are some sections of networks in Germany in particular, actually, that are also looking up to 30 percent or planning to look up to 30 plus percent as well.
[00:09:12.110] - Jon Slowe
Okay, so quite significant amounts.
[00:09:14.570] - Jon Slowe
And in terms of how much activity there is, if we're looking at new pipes, existing pipes blending or pure hydrogen, how much activity is there across Europe? Can you give our listeners a sense of whether it's just starting? It's a handful or there are tens or it's going on everywhere.
[00:09:35.320] - Rob Castek
So, the short answer is there's more going on in blending currently across Europe, but it's still quite small scale. So, usually there's sort of trial networks or sections that are separated in the networks that will then blend a little bit. And if you look across Europe, the sort of leading countries are definitely sort of the UK, Germany and Netherlands and France as well, I would say. And yes. So, there's quite a bit of blending going on the ground already.
[00:10:08.080] - Rob Castek
So, a famous UK project will be the HyDeploy where there's been sort of a 20 percent blend being already supplied to a university campus, for example. And those are moving to sort of sections of the public network as well.
[00:10:24.560] - Jon Slowe
OK, what about pure hydrogen networks? 100 percent hydrogen.
[00:10:29.020] - Rob Castek
So, those are definitely rarer still. There are a few small live projects today.
[00:10:37.180] - Rob Castek
There's a couple in the Netherlands, in Rotterdam, and there's a little bit up in Scotland, actually in Orkney. But they're definitely rarer than the actual blending that's going on. But there are some very firm plans of actually sort of purpose building new 100% networks to sort of new areas, but also to existing homes.
[00:10:58.720] - Jon Slowe
Yeah, OK.
[00:10:59.830] - Jon Slowe
That's a really helpful picture Rob because it gives us a good sense of where we're at today. So, Eva and Keith, let's come back to both of you and look first at blending and then 100 percent hydrogen. So, blending it's not the end point for Net Zero, I guess, but it might play a big role in reducing emissions from using gas in the short and medium term. And it provides a way to stimulate the market for production of hydrogen as well. So, my first question is, how easy is it to blend or how hard is it? Or do you have to think about?
[00:11:35.680] - Jon Slowe
Is it a case of just shoving up to 20 percent in the network and sit back and relax or what's involved in planning and doing that? Eva let's start with you.
[00:11:45.700] - Eva Hennig
It's quite easy.
[00:11:46.900] - Eva Hennig
You just build a blending station. And then you inject it I could say. No, it's assumed that you have somebody who is producing the hydrogen. And as soon as you have somebody who is also delivering the hydrogen when you need it. So, you need to have security supply so you can take this assumption as ideas I think it's quite straightforward. You have to look at your grid. You have to look at the components which are installed in your grid. You have to make sure that they can take whatever blend you want to inject, which for most of the DSOs, I think is easy.
[00:12:17.110] - Eva Hennig
As long as you have a polyethylene grid in Germany, we don't have any more cast iron and so we don't have to worry about that. We have mostly and polyethylene can go up to 100 hundred percent.
[00:12:27.280] - Eva Hennig
You still have to analyse what kind of components you have, if there is anything in there which might be affected with hydrogen. So, that's step number one
[00:12:34.690] - Jon Slowe
What might an example of that component be?
[00:12:38.860] - Eva Hennig
Well, if you think about the 20 percent. Would hardly be anything except maybe the discussion on the meter, but that's a special topic when you talk about the meeting, most of the other components are hydrogen, save up to 20 percent. You might have something, which is when you go from polyethylene to steel. So, when you have those joints, when you have a valve and sometimes in the valve, you have many, many tiny pieces which are made of high-end steel.
[00:13:05.390] - Eva Hennig
They might be affected when you go up to one hundred percent. And this is why we are analysing every component that exists in our grid. And we put them through the test, we talk to the manufacturers. But you really have to know what kind of components you have in your grid part one.
[00:13:20.270] - Eva Hennig
Part two.
[00:13:21.260] - Jon Slowe
Yep.
[00:13:22.950] - Eva Hennig
Customers, you have to know what the customers what kind of appliances and applications your customers have, whether you have any thresholds there.
[00:13:30.530] - Eva Hennig
We all know that the biggest threshold are the CNG stations because they only can go up to two percent because of the tanks.
[00:13:38.970] - Eva Hennig
And you might run into a problem when you have a motor CHP plants, which is very common in Germany, a bit less common in the UK and when you have very specific applications for high-end industrial glass production, steel production, aluminium production. So as soon as you go into very special gas applications, but this just means you have to learn about the customers, you have to know it and then you can go.
[00:14:02.250] - Eva Hennig
It's not that complicated.
[00:14:04.780] - Jon Slowe
Keith, how does that match with your experience?
[00:14:08.550] - Keith Owen
Yeah, it's a similar story here. I was going to touch on some of the things that Eva's mentioned. And certainly, I think one of the challenges is around. Certainly, in the UK, I suspect elsewhere is around the billing of energy, gas energy bills, volumetrically, measured, volumetrically. But you're building energy. And as soon as you introduce a different gas to the natural gas mix that influences the energy that you're using.
[00:14:42.120] - Keith Owen
So, there's a bit of work to do there, I think, in terms of how we maintain that accurate billing and there is a separate project in the UK to manage that and come up with some new methodologies to allow us to support blending in the future.
[00:15:00.280] - Jon Slowe
Anything in there that's a showstopper or challenges that you can see ways around them ways to work through?
[00:15:06.390] - Keith Owen
Yeah, I think the very much I would contextualize this is very much there's a bunch of technical challenges. Engineers like nothing better than a challenge, and therefore there are ways to facilitate blending. There are then the regulatory and market challenges which need to be addressed so that really we just need to make sure that each and every customer that is protected is provided with the right sort of service so they pay for the energy that they're receiving, that we can manage the gas quality composition in a stable way so that some of the larger users where that gas composition is really quite important to them, they know what they're going to be getting 24/7.
[00:15:57.060] - Keith Owen
So, it's all sorts of issues, really, rather than the can we can't we can certainly do this. We've got it running at Keele University up to 20 percent with Cadent Gas, who are the lead for HyDeploy. We're shortly to commence the public trial that's on our site at Winlaton in Gateshead. So, first of a kind for the UK public trial of 670 consumers. So real-world setting and all of these elements of work, this project and this research effort that's going in is really to establish a business-as-usual position as quickly as possible.
[00:16:36.030] - Keith Owen
So, we don't really see any showstoppers. This is just about working through the technical and other challenges that are out there to create this new this new market, I suppose, for blended gas.
[00:16:48.630] - Jon Slowe
Eva
[00:16:49.020] - Jon Slowe
How much would you describe it as business as usual for blending today, or how far away do you think you are from business as usual to be able to blend lots of different sources of hydrogen into your network?
[00:17:01.710] - Eva Hennig
It depends on the company whether the company has already been working on those topics. This is why in the Thüga group, we have many companies getting together. So, we have joint working groups to get people accustomed to the discussion we have together without the DSOs. We are talking to the manufacturers to make sure that they are then proving the point that how far the appliances can go. And I think in the last 15 months, the perception has changed considerably when maybe, in the beginning, people were more like, oh, we don't know, we rather take biomethane.
[00:17:37.430] - Eva Hennig
And I think now they are getting more accustomed to it. Don't forget that in Germany, our legislation, the technical legislation says you can blend up to 10 percent. This is already part of our technical rules and we also have the full balancing rules and everything that we have had that for ten years already. So, we are maybe more accustomed to the discussion on the hydrogen and what Keith has just said with the gas quality and the metering, we have pilot projects now with the tracking of the gas.
[00:18:02.910] - Eva Hennig
So, you know exactly at which point of the gas grid do you have which {illegible} index, which gas quality, which hydrogen content.
[00:18:08.820] - Eva Hennig
And when you have the security as a technician, safety is of the utmost importance. We want to operate a safe grid and also bring hydrogen safely to the customers. And this kind of knowledge is something that engineers love to have.
[00:18:22.950] - Jon Slowe
OK, so it sounds to me like, yes, you can blend. There's still a bit more to work out in terms of some of those nitty gritty issues you talked about. But what about how much you can blend? 20 percent is a number Rob you mentioned that potentially 30 percent. Where do you think you can get to where the percentage of hydrogen for the sort of approaches that you've talked about? Keith, do you want to go first and then Eva.
[00:18:51.300] - Keith Owen
Yes, of course.
[00:18:53.990] - Keith Owen
So, the UK position of 20 percent is one which was taken, I mean, as you might expect in the gas industry, we're fairly conservative in our approach.
[00:19:03.310] - Eva Hennig
{Laughing} Engineers
[00:19:08.310] - Keith Owen
Absolutely.
[00:19:09.380] - Keith Owen
And so, 20 percent was selected because that sits within the range of gases that UK appliances are tested. So, there might be a stress test, gas, the commissioning gas, if you like, calibration gases that are used in the factories to test boilers, for instance. It is a slightly higher proportion of hydrogen than 20 percent or 23 percent.
[00:19:38.470] - Eva Hennig
Yes.
[00:19:39.720] - Keith Owen
So, the 20 percent position was taken as a point at which there is no material impact on the appliance, which is a really important aspect to this.
[00:19:49.860] - Keith Owen
Now, I've seen some research out there that suggests 30 percent is equally valid. I saw that from I think it might have been Cardiff University. But for the moment at least, we are holding to that position because we think that allows us to do, you know, a reasonable amount of decarbonisation and I think that's around 6-7% carbon reduction and get things moving. Now, if there's an easy wind to shift to a slightly higher percentage in the future, I think that's fine.
[00:20:19.740] - Keith Owen
But at the moment, we just need to get to a business-as-usual position.
[00:20:23.760] - Keith Owen
I think we do get just to close out the point, we do get to a more defined decision point, which is the diminishing returns that blending might give. So, there's at some point there was a step-change which says you need to make some material changes to the connected equipment.
[00:20:44.280] - Jon Slowe
And then is it worth it or. Yeah,
[00:20:47.360]
Or should we go one hundred percent?
[00:20:49.090]
Yeah,
[00:20:50.370] - Keith Owen
Because if you're going to make that level of material change, you'd be better off going.
[00:20:54.670] - Jon Slowe
Yeah,
[00:20:55.440] - Keith Owen
Yeah.
[00:20:56.970] - Jon Slowe
Eva, you've talked about 10 percent being already in German law. What sort of percentages are you working towards or do you think you could get to in Germany?
[00:21:07.050] - Eva Hennig
So, it's also the same the 20 percent. It's one of those numbers that has been around for some time now. But now with appliances existing that have been tested, going up to 30 percent, some of the appliance industry is pushing forward into this direction. If you have a grid where this is possible, it's great. But don't forget, you still have to have hydrogen being produced and you need to have the high security of supply. So, we are depending very much on this question, how much can we blend on?
[00:21:37.170] - Eva Hennig
Where are we? Are we connected to a hydrogen backbone? When will we be connected to the hydrogen backbone? Do we have hydrogen production close by? Do we have a hydrogen production close by which is producing in the wintertime?
[00:21:48.210] - Eva Hennig
Because I don't need it in the summer. I need it in the winter, and I need it with a swing that we have. So, there are a couple of things. And as Keith said, the low hanging fruit is to blend as much as you can without having investment into the appliances and the applications. The next step is then the question, where do you jump to? I don't envisage a jump from 20 to 30, 40, 50. It's more like you go to the limit and then you have to change anyway because you cannot operate something with 50 percent of hydrogen that would be hardly possible with the existing.
[00:22:19.350] - Eva Hennig
And so, we are waiting for those famous. And this is why I love Hy4Heat, the UK program. We are waiting for the hydrogen boilers and hydrogen ready appliances because this is the big push, and we have them, and you can switch them easily and cheaply. I think this will be then the moment when you say, OK, now we can move.
[00:22:37.290] - Jon Slowe
Well, OK, let's go in on that theme to looking at 100 percent hydrogen. So, let's imagine we've got the appliances there, the boilers, the appliances the gas cookers are already what, Keith you said the simple answer to your study was, yes, you could convert leads to hydrogen.
[00:23:00.520] - Jon Slowe
Can you help our listeners understand a bit more about what would be involved in that, because is it as simple as switching off the natural gas and then putting in the hydrogen? What would be the biggest challenges that you'd need to work through to be ready to do that? Keith, do you want to go first and then, Eva?
[00:23:20.110] - Keith Owen
Yes, sure. So, yeah. So, as I mentioned earlier, the H21 work that was done back in 2016 established. It was technically feasible to convert a UK gas network. So, it wasn't necessarily specific to Leeds. We used that as a suitably technically challenging example, but it's applicable from a UK position. And in terms of what that what, we're striving for here, the prize is that we can repurpose our existing infrastructure. That's really where we need to drive to because that maintains low cost.
[00:23:57.760] - Keith Owen
The maintains what customers are used to seeing. We're not having to dig up the streets and so in order to put new asset in.
[00:24:04.420] - Keith Owen
So, it's really important aspect of H21 is that repurposing.
[00:24:09.160] - Jon Slowe
What's the biggest part of that repurposing or is it relatively small? Is it all suitable?
[00:24:17.020] - Keith Owen
So, where we are at the moment, the H21 program is just about closed out phase one. The report will be produced this quarter for the public to read through and hopefully enjoy what they see. And we're now in the phase two. And what we're trying to do here is the UK's gas infrastructure, slightly different to what Eva's described in Germany, we've still got a reasonable
[00:24:44.050] - Eva Hennig
Cast iron
[00:24:44.050] - Keith Owen
Yeah, portion of iron in there, which poses slightly different challenges to the plastics.
[00:24:50.170] - Keith Owen
So, there's been a lot of work undertaken both through the H21 program, the H100 program from Scotia colleagues through HyDeployer and so on. Looking at the material science and understanding the impacts of hydrogen might have on all of the different components that are out there from polymers to rubber to plastics, brass, steels, you name it.
[00:25:17.110] - Jon Slowe
Okay, because it's not just the pipes.
[00:25:18.220] - Jon Slowe
It's the joins, it's the {cross talk} everything.
[00:25:22.010] - Jon Slowe
And there's quite a lot.
[00:25:23.290] - Keith Owen
Yeah, it's valves, it's pre-heat systems, all those different components. So, there's been a lot of work looking at that in the lower pressure in the distribution side of things. But more recently, we've seen some really great work spinning up through National Grid, looking at the high pressure, you know, the forty bar and above type or 20 bar and above type pipelines to really start to understand the challenges there, too, because they've got sizeable compression systems and so on.
[00:25:57.460] - Keith Owen
So, there's an awful lot of work going on looking at that, what is the impact question and finding answers {illegible} that.
[00:26:06.460] - Keith Owen
But we've now we're now starting to move. From a distribution perspective, beyond the can we do this challenge, which we've gone through to the how do we do it. So, the work we're undertaking at the moment is really looking at everything that we've learned thus far. And we're creating a microgrid, at a site over in Cumbria called Spadeadam, where we can really simulate everything that the gas network does right now. And we're working with our partners right across the gas industry, so all of the national grid and all the other distribution networks, all working with us to create this infrastructure so we can test all of our policies and procedures.
[00:26:49.790] - Keith Owen
So, you can see that we're moving towards a position, which is that right? We're starting to think about the transition and how we might make that work. And this is step by step sections of our network would slowly start to be cut across and a little bit like we would do now. If we're extending the network, we start to target sectors of our infrastructure to move across the hydrogen and a phased program of work.
[00:27:17.510] - Jon Slowe
Yeah, OK.
[00:27:18.150] - Jon Slowe
So, in principle, yes, it's doable, but the devil's in the detail and there's a lot of detail to work through. But you're now getting to the stage where you're looking at practically what might this involve?
[00:27:29.960] - Keith Owen
Yes.
[00:27:31.670] - Jon Slowe
Eva from your perspective, 100 percent hydrogen. How close/far away, are you what are the big challenges? How much focus is there on that in Germany at the moment?
[00:27:45.200] - Eva Hennig
So, we have to make the distinction between existing natural gas grids and new grids, so we are looking at now is a new grid that we want to build and an extension, which is fairly easy then to do this and hydrogen because it's the same material.
[00:28:00.673] - Jon Slowe
You could design it
[00:28:03.710] - Eva Hennig
But this just means you need to have hydrogen appliances.
[00:28:06.640] - Eva Hennig
And this is what we are still waiting for. We would love to have hydrogen fuel cells also for the heating.
[00:28:11.870] - Eva Hennig
We would love to have some hydrogen gas heat pumps which are now in development. So, this is one part where we really practically are looking at if we want to build a project here in the Bavaria. The other one is the question on repurposing existing natural gas grid to one hundred percent. This is what we're doing, this dry study, looking at all the components, getting the manufacturer-approved, how far you can go. And then, of course, we need to have the appliances which are able to roll out in this big numbers and there we were still missing.
[00:28:42.890] - Eva Hennig
We have a big project with thirty-five other DSOs because as you know, we have in Germany seven hundred and forty DSOs because that's a big difference to the UK and we in this project, which we do together with our technical association, we are looking at how a DSO will do this.
[00:29:00.320] - Eva Hennig
And as Keith has said, you're going to section so you will have parts of the grid which are easily to be transferred to 100 percent because you also have a feeding of 100 percent of hydrogen. You still need to have the stuff it will not be falling from the sky.
[00:29:14.060] - Eva Hennig
So, you will look at the part of the grid, which is maybe newer, where you have steel pipes which are corrosion safe.
[00:29:20.420] - Eva Hennig
And the big difference is that we are operating usually mid-pressure. So, we are operating somewhere between 350 and 700 millibar grids.
[00:29:28.400] - Eva Hennig
We hardly have any low-pressure gas grids, and we have lots and lots of high-pressure gas grids going up to 70, 80.
[00:29:35.240] - Eva Hennig
And so, we have to look at the whole change from polyethylene going up to high-end steels. And when you talk about 100 percent, you really have to look at those loads that you have in the grids if you use them as buffer pipelines or line pack, we normally play with them throughout the week.
[00:29:54.590] - Eva Hennig
And the question is, can you do the same thing when you have them in one hundred percent of hydrogen?
[00:29:58.220] - Eva Hennig
And this is why we look to all anything that's happening in the UK with all the tests that {illegible} agency is doing in Buxton, we tried to learn from everybody, and we also try to disseminate what we are learning to everybody. So, we don't have to think two times the same stuff. But it's doable, but it takes more time because you need to have the hydrogen ready.
[00:30:22.070] - Jon Slowe
Yeah, you need hydrogen. And Keith, as you mentioned, it's rightly a conservative industry.
[00:30:27.800] - Jon Slowe
You want to be risk-averse, so you've got to go very carefully, a very methodology very thoroughly through each part of the network. I think that gives a really good picture, actually, of where you're at the moment, that both the big picture studies and then the very practical nitty-gritty things that need to be done.
[00:30:53.210] - Jon Slowe
Now, as always, time is getting the better of us.
[00:30:55.640] - Jon Slowe
So, it's time to bring up the Talking New Energy crystal ball this week. And I'll put it on the desk next to me here this week. I'm using the dual settings of 2025 and 2030.
[00:31:09.110] - Jon Slowe
So, I'd like to ask each of you in the and where you think we'll be in those years in terms of blending and converting networks to run, converting existing networks to run on one hundred percent hydrogen. So, in the interest of time, short, snappy answers, please. Eva let's start with you. So, 2025, 2030 blending hundred percent hydrogen in existing networks.
[00:31:39.410] - Eva Hennig
2025 many projects with blending. We're going to have the hydrogen ready boilers; we're going to have the gas heat pumps. We have the legislation ready, the European legislation and also the national legislation, which is a big part. And we're going to have the guarantees of origin so people will be interested in buying the hydrogen. That's something that we need. And we will have first projects where you have pure hydrogen probably, and you will in newer grids, so they can be built exactly from pure hydrogen.
[00:32:05.150] - Eva Hennig
2030, I think we will have in Germany at least twenty percent of hydrogen in the grids. And overall, which means we will have grids which have more. We have other grids which have less. And the hydrogen backbone which will start in 2025, the hydrogen backbone will be advanced. So, we will see hydrogen backbone going at least to the middle of Germany.
[00:32:28.370] - Eva Hennig
And maybe if we're lucky, we going to get some hydrogen from the East, from the Ukraine. So, it's going to be fed from the north-west, coming from the North Sea. Europe had been converted to have. And then having some hydrogen coming in from the east.
[00:32:40.630] - Jon Slowe
So, a lot of activity in the neck, that's s an exciting picture, you've painted.
[00:32:47.480] - Jon Slowe
Keith, how about you?
[00:32:50.110] - Keith Owen
Yeah, top that, I guess, is the challenge, so, yeah, it's a similar theme, I think in the UK by 2025 we would anticipate blending to be a reasonably established and growing business as usual operation, commercial operation, rather than research projects continuing. By 2025, we would we fully expect to be a number of 100 percent gas that hydrogen gas trials happening across the UK. We’ve heard little from Rob earlier about the work that's happening in East Fife with the H100 project.
[00:33:35.230] - Keith Owen
And certainly, the other networks have similar ambitions. And by that time, we should have all of the gas industry standards converted across to or match to hydrogen. So, we've got all of our industry technical support in place, policies and procedures in place. There will be still some work to do. I think considering 100 percent in the regulatory and the market sphere, that's quite a big area over some legal changes and so forth. By 2030, we fully expect blending just as Eva's just described that to be a 20 percent normal landscape across the UK.
[00:34:19.660] - Keith Owen
You know, really significant amounts of hydrogen entering the system at that point. You're into the sort of terawatts of the product, which is amazing. But of course, by 2030, we would hope to be in a position where we're really starting the roll-out programme. So, we you know, the planning work has kicked on from 25 through to 30, a network now in a position in terms of that supply-demand balance where the production is geared up, the transition of the networks can commence.
[00:34:52.610] - Keith Owen
And as Eva described, the appliances and the supply chain for that are also in a position to provide what will be hundreds of thousands of appliances on a fairly rapid turnaround basis.
[00:35:08.200] - Jon Slowe
So, an equally exciting decade ahead in the UK then in the UK gas industry. Rob, anything you'd like to add to that in terms of a European perspective, your views, your thoughts.
[00:35:21.970] - Rob Castek
Sure. I mean, generally, I would echo everything Eva and Keith have said in terms of Germany and the UK as they being sort of leading countries in Europe. So, by 2025 and blending, I would say, yeah, many more sections of the network will be blending, will be blending gases.
[00:35:41.670] - Rob Castek
And maybe the countries that have signalled that they want to trial them today across Europe, they'll be starting to do that by 2025. I think for 100 percent networks we'll probably see a few more kind of purpose-built, one hundred percent networks and not so much of the conversion yet. But moving on to 2030 now, I definitely agree that there will be yeah, it'll be much more established.
[00:36:06.960] - Rob Castek
The blending side of things, business as usual. And on the 100 percent side, I do think there'll be a lot more efforts towards converting the existing infrastructure, especially in the leading countries.
[00:36:19.120] - Jon Slowe
Well, Rob, you had that very nice analogy of the three-legged stool production, distribution of storage and utilization, and Eva and Keith, I guess from what you both said, you will be ready by 2025 and 2030 from the distribution side, from the bits that you’re responsible for.
[00:36:38.050] - Jon Slowe
So, an exciting decade ahead for well, for decarbonisation in general and particularly for the gas sector. It's been great hearing about your experiences, your plans, the challenges how you're looking to get over them in Germany and the UK. So, thanks very much Eva for joining.
[00:36:59.090] - Eva Hennig
Thank you very much. It was great, thanks Keith it was a combination.
[00:37:05.360] - Jon Slowe
Yeah, complemented each other very nicely.
[00:37:06.710] - Jon Slowe
Thanks to Keith.
[00:37:09.590] - Jon Slowe
And thanks very much, Rob.
[00:37:11.480] - Eva Hennig
Thank you, Rob.
[00:37:13.820] - Jon Slowe
Thanks, as always to everyone for listening. Hope you enjoyed the episodes.
[00:37:19.550] - Jon Slowe
And we'll be diving into other aspects of hydrogen in the near future, I think in a couple of episodes, looking at hydrogen boilers in particular and the challenges in developing them.
[00:37:30.920] - Jon Slowe
So, thanks very much, everyone. Thanks to everyone, for listening. And look forward to welcoming you back to the next episode, soon.
[00:37:37.160] - Jon Slowe
Goodbye. If you're as passionate about the energy transition as we are, then please keep in touch. You can follow us and me on Twitter, LinkedIn or subscribe to the podcasts on your chosen podcast platform.
[00:38:07.160] - Jon Slowe
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